Massively

I personally don't get why any leet players would be upset about attunement requirements being dropped. Seriously, being able to enter Black Temple and being able to even beat the first trash pull are 2 entirely different things. When they dropped attunement to SSC, it's not like pugs were going in and putting Lady Vashj on farm or anything.

I've been on hiatus for the past month until 2.4 comes out anyway. The only thing I have left to do besides raid are Ogrilla dailies, which are boring as hell.

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I don't play WoW myself anymore (because well I consider it far too easy of a game, and boring to boot, compared to say FFXI or other mmos i play)...but to be honest i do understand where these gripes are coming from.. blizzard introduced a system, people put their effort into it, and then blizzard just gave it away. This is one of the main things that they've done wrong (segregate their hardcore audience). To be honest I see WoW as a casual game, as the hardcore always gets screwed (i.e.: when bc upgrade, and now the gear release, etc.).

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The thing that the "hardcore" don't seem to fully grasp is that they are removing the barrier to entry from instances that won't be the best of the best anymore.

The true "hardcore" will be sitting on the Ironforge bridge in Sunwell gear thinking about how much better they are than all those in BT gear.

If they really feel that a group of 25 people can pug their way through heroics and kara to get badges and equip themselves in "badge temple" gear and then be on equal footing in the Sunwell compared to a raid that has been running together since Gruuls then they really don't feel like they have accomplished much do they.

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Um....Ultimately isn't accomplishment beating bosses and getting gear, not walking in the door? If a group can walk in, it doesn't mean that they can get anywhere. And if they can, they deserve to be there just as much as the "core". If you ask me, they're just whining that other people get urples.

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To the contrary there is a significant reason why hardcore players do feel belittled:

Preface:
1. I am not a hard core raider, I am in a raiding guild that is working on the last bosses in SSC/TK right now so you could call me objective. I only raid 2 maybe 3 nights a week.
2. I am a former hardcore raider, who used to run 5 raids a week. Work / RL obligations just didn't make that feasible any longer.

I sympathize with the plight of the hard core raider as someone who used to be one (pre-tbc), the hard core raider is a very dedicated player. They work incredibly hard to access that content, progress as a team and stay focused on goals. Monster repair bills, time investments and rewards all balance out this persons focus. Gear is most certainly the most visible and tangible (in a world of intangible) reward for those efforts.

Dumbing down instances to provide more access to the masses after these guys have conquered it really does feel belittling. People keep wanting to glaze over this fact when the reality it truly does matter. You lose the interest of these players, you lose alot in the game. These are the guys that inspire you to be better, to beat the unbeatable, to focus.

There has to be a balance, there has to be something there for the super dedicated such as these people or there becomes less for the non-hardcore to aspire to achieve some day.

Dumbing down raids, dropping attunments, making PVP T6 equivalent gear are all besmudging the efforts of the hard-core. We need the hard core in the game, we need these people demonstrtaing what leadership, dedication and teamwork can truly deliver. Without these people, we will not have the developers focus for challenges, it will be just a game of grinding rep, to get you hand-outs and it will be a game purely about just spend enough time and it's yours.

Do you really want to lose those challenges? Do you want to lose that inspiration? I personally don't, I won't ever get there as fast as those guys but I sure as heck will do my best to be just as good as them some day.

Javafanatic - Windrunner, go ahead and look it up, I'm not hardcore.

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In support of the hardcore raiders, this is weak. Back in the day you had to have your guild of 50 farming Silithus for a couple weeks to open the doors of AQ, and this is just one guild of usually 4 racing to be the lucky ones with to walk in first. That was one of the coolest moments in WoW I will ever have (unless they devise a way for us to protect cities against NPC/Player raids, i.e. Age of Conan). A lot of guilds will die to trash in BT and SSC, just because the attunement is out, doesn't mean they're getting T5/6 by knocking on the door. It's not called progression for nothin'. But in saying that, raiding will never be the same anyways, since TBC, so the whining also needs to stop. Burning Crusade killed the definition of "Hardcore Raider", which there was only one, the Raid Leader of 40. Yeah, sweet, you downed a boss with 25 people. Cookies in the mail for you. But old school knows how hard it was sitting 40-deep in BWL when the size of SSC raids were polymorphed and shapeshifted.


So in support of the casual gamer, a lot of you 25-man circle jerks need to stop calling yourselves "Hardcore Raiders" until you experience the agony of finding 40 people who have a stable internet connection, have the time for 4-5 hour raids, work together, and come prepared. A lot of people are re-activating accounts and raiding again, and I'm sure as hell that they're annoyed to do 3 quest chains and get honored with nearly every faction just to play the game on hard-mode. I've seen the best players in the game get turned down by guilds because of rep and attunement issues. Attunement is worth the grinding and quests when it's a race to open content for the whole server. Finding key fragments at the bottom of a bitch-work lake, is not attunement. So my guess is, Blizz will return to server-attunement instead of individual. Let's just hope it's Horde vs. Alliance as we sail onto the shores of Northrend.

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As a player who never had the time or the right guild to get into the end-game, I don't see the problem.

Yes, I understand that those who regularly stand triumphant over Illidan's corpse are great players and have invested a lot of time into World of Warcraft. However, they invested a lot of time in a past time that they enjoy. We are not talking about a corporate CEO whose job has just been given to the mail room clerk.

I pay the same $15 a month as hardcore gamers, yet I am denied entrance to parts of the game content? With 10 million strong online, why are the hardcore players, a minority to be sure, saying that the game should be tailored to them? I would love to not only beat Illidan and earn a lovely Lightbringer set, but neither myself nor my guild can invest the hours per week at our computers. Am I be content then with Heroic PUGs, Kara runs and dailies? If you wouldn't be satisfied doing such things yourself, how can you relegate other players to that fate?

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Here's what I had to say about this on my blog
http://moonkinmusings.blogspot.com/

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The hardcore elite have nothing to worry about. Its does not affect their 'elite' status.
1.) The gear the pugs get from badges, though comparable, are identified easily by look and name. As are the ones you get from BT, etc... Your hard earned gear still commands respect from the people that COUNT...those that can tell the difference and know what you went through to get it. Do you REALLY care what some 11 year old casual player thinks of you or do you care what a mature longtime player that understands what you have thinks?
2.) This makes it so that casual players have something to shoot for. I would love to be a hardcore raider, but im in the NAVY. With the sea time and crazy hours, i can never be anything but a casual player. I could never get in a guild or 25 man group to get those cool epics and such. Because of that i even got to a point where i would stop playing a while at a time till new content came out cause i was in the 'well im stuck without a big group so what can i really do now?' mentality. Now though i can still honor the game with dedication by getting badges and joining other 'pugs' and getting gear from kara etc...Just cause the attunements are gone and the badges let you get awesome gear doesnt make it anyless dedicated. It takes alot of time and effort to get 100+ badges PER item. It might now be the same as 25 superawesome hardcore startegists taking down end game bosses but in our limited way it is still dedication. And for some of us do to out lives, thats all we can hope to be.

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I agree with rinks (post #1). The ability to get in and clearing the content are two different things.

I only see this as an improvement. With work, part time teaching and kids it took me forever to get my kara key. I like it.

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