Massively goes to WAR: What worries us about Warhammer

by Michael Zenke Jun 6th 2008 at 1:00PM

Filed under: Fantasy, Warhammer Online, Opinion, Massively Hands-on

All week we've brought you coverage of the design concepts and ideas that make up Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning. The components that make the back of Warhammer's box look mighty interesting – RvR, Scenarios, Public Quests, the Tome of Knowledge – are all generally very solid. We've reported on exactly what we saw and were told last week, with an attempt at an objective stance.

Though this week's coverage is now at an end, there are still some questions left unanswered. Some will be addressed in future articles on the site, but some are higher-level than that. The game's seen two major pushbacks at this point, and players have to be concerned about whether EA Mythic will make their current Fall deadline. I'm concerned too, about a number of things. Here, then, is the stuff I'm unsure about when it comes to Warhammer Online; the unanswered questions, the balls in the air, the shadows under the bed. Read on for my attempt to frame these questions as best I can.

From top to bottom, here are the issues I personally feel players should be concerned about ramping up to this Fall:

Time Keeps Ticking: Ultimately, time is not on EA Mythic's side this year. They've now pushed the game back twice, changing player expectations. Though an upswell of information handed down in the last few months has helped to refocus attention on the game, once players get the term 'vaporware' inside their heads it's hard to get it out. Where players were once anticipating the game, the two pushbacks have raised expectations a great deal; for some dyed-in-the-wool Warhammer fans, the personal expectation of game perfection may no longer be attainable by a corporeal game developer.

City Spectacular: Altdorf is far and away the most complete of the six Capital Cities. It was my impression that the Inevitable City is the second-most complete of these zones. The other four are in various stages of less-completeness. Given the sheer ambition of these areas, that may be cause for some concern. Make no mistake: Altdorf may be the most impressive NPC city in an MMO to date. Performing bards, dungeons, drunks, bar fights, etc ... the sheer variety of background life and 'stuff to do' puts it heads and shoulders above even World of Warcraft's expertly crafted capitals. That said, they aren't done with Altdorf yet and they still have five more to finish. Here's hoping their eyes aren't bigger than their stomachs.

PvE Endgame: We asked and had answered the question about the PvE endgame, and it's my opinion that there is some "there" there. For max-level players not only will there be dungeons but Capital City-based PvE content as well. That said, it's interesting that the details on those dungeons are still being nailed down at this stage in the game. Add that to the still-in-motion City development and it's another difficult question to nail down.

The Perception Game: I asked Jeff Hickman directly about the endless comparisons to World of Warcraft. Personally, I agree with his assessment: Warhammer is simply not World of Warcraft reskinned; it's a fundamentally different game with a completely different character and sensibility. That said, the prevailing opinion in MMO circles seems to be that WAR is just a WoW knock-off. Will that help or hurt the company when launch rolls around? Will that prompt Warcraft players to try the game? Will it make them drop their subscriptions after a month because of out-of-sync expectations? More distressingly, will it prompt WoW players to ignore the game entirely?

The Graphics Question: Let's be frank for a moment. Some of the early Warhammer screenshots, even ones released as recently as last spring, were a bit dodgey. Washed out, extremely samey. The reason, we discovered during our visit, is that detailed lighting models were only added to the game fairly recently. The final lighting schema isn't even in the game yet, and each light source has to be placed into the game by hand. EA Mythic workstations all have a distributed computing program loaded onto them that assists that part of the team with running brute-force computations at night. The result is that almost no-one has seen what the game will really truly look like at launch ... but players have been forming opinions on everything released so far.

The Tome's Uniqueness: One final, and comparatively minor, question is about the Tome of Knowledge's true uniqueness. LOTRO fans claim that the Tome isn't offering anything that their game doesn't have; having now played both games, I'm of the opinion that the Tome is a more complex and detailed system. In my experience, it's very much unlike what LOTRO's quest/lore book offers. That said, it may still be a sticking point, a possible hotspot.

Ultimately all of this is moot. As Mike Schramm put it so eloquently on our last podcast, the players who log in on launch day are going to be the ones that decide whether Warhammer's been worth the effort or not. The initial buzz from early adopters has made or broken numerous games in the past, and if that first batch of players is happy it'll go a long way towards shifting and changing attitudes. Assuming the Fall deadline holds, we'll know soon enough which way the winds are blowing.

Did you enjoy this? Make sure to check out all of our previous Warhammer Online coverage, and don't miss any of the rest of the articles in this series as Massively goes to WAR!

Credits: Massively.com would like to thank the following people for making this event coverage possible: Juli Cummins, Chris Heintz, Eddiemae Jukes, Paul Barnett, Jeff Hickman, Josh Drescher, Adam Gershowitz, Mike Stone, Brian Wheeler, Jeff Skalski, James Nichols, Daniel Enright, Justin Webb, Carrie Gouskos, Christian Bales, Mark Jacobs, Jordan and all the folks from the RvR sessions, and (of course) yourself for reading along.

Tags: ea-mythic, featured, joystiqfeatures, massively-goes-to-war, opinion, war, warhammer-online

Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)

Gylfi said on 1:38PM 6-06-2008

Everything in this game sounds innovative, compelling and interesting to play.

Except the quests system, which is the usual old goop.
Being the quest system, or the way one levels, the most important part of a game, the one you're stuck with the most, I'm not gonna buy the game.. i will wait for a game that tries to innovate the missions scheme!

Adieu.

Brian! said on 2:01PM 6-06-2008

I want a game that dumps levels.

The public quests sound cool though. Very cool. Actually, the whole mindset of making it easy for players to work together yet still be "solo" is fantastic. That's what I want in my MMOs, the feeling that I can impact the world even when I am alone.

But back to levels. In games, they serve a few clear purposes:

1. To restrict people to a storyline path
2. To show growth
3. To reward.

Since MMOs have multiple storylines, it almost makes sense not to have one big level but instead have lots of little levels. They could be chains of quests, reputation levels, etc... And you still get the reward of leveling each, but there are a lot of things to level and grow as opposed to one big level.

But the biggest problem with levels in MMOs... they end. When they end the game changes so much that we now have two games in one, the level game and then the end game. The level game being a race to see how fast we can get to the end game where the "real game" starts (as so many people say).

So, uh, why not just let us all skip to the real game, find ways to offer growth and rewards there (WoW does it through reputation and gear, but there are other ways), and put all the work into that. In the end, we will have a game that didn't spends months making a leveling system that we will all stop using within a few months anyway.

Brian! said on 1:43PM 6-06-2008

They need to get the game out the door now. Especially after selling pre-orders. Pinch in more artists, whatever, just finish it.

Too many other games coming out the muddy the water and WAR is living hype. They are likely to sell out like Conan, but what happens after that?

If they get it done, and done right, they will make a serious mint. They should have gotten it out already, smashed Conan into the ground (which I think they will easy) and hook players into the gameplay before wrath hits.

WAR is likely to pull the Conan players, simply because Conan is strangely like playing a single player game where you might meet other people in their single player game. WAR seems to be clearly a multi-player environment where you might be able to handle being a lone wolf, yet even your "individualism" still lends itself to the multiplayer cause. Come on, we play MMOs to play with other people right?

WOW and WAR... well, Wrath is going to pull WOW players back. Even the ones like me who are so sick of the game but we will be curious to see what the new lands will be like. Plus, we all want to see what goodies our class can get from another 10 levels. After putting years into those toons, it is hard to resist.

So, Mythic, get your shit in gear! Hire more artists to fill the gaps, put in the long hours, get the game out the door. At this point it is time to firewall the office so that your team can't access any other game online. No more "testing" someone else's game. (yea, I have worked for a game company in the past). Release BEFORE the WOW expansion.

If you get your game out, you'll get people like me invested in a new toon before Wrath. Otherwise, I will be bored, I will check out WOW's expansion and you'll have to wait for me to get bored of that fully to try WAR with focus to get me hooked.

If you want too long, then you have to deal with the other games I am excited about trying. God, please make Champions cool!! I still roll CoX toons just because it is so fun to customize.

Goodluck Mythic

Nadril said on 2:04PM 6-06-2008

Maybe you didn't get past level 20 in conan, but the game is largely a multiplayer game. Especially leveling later on grouping is a big plus because of all the people in leveling areas.

Not to mention the large sieges.

Anyways, WAR will not be ready in 5 months IMO. At this point they can either release a buggy mess or wait, but then ultimately lose subscribers to WoTLK.

And I'm not so sure about it out selling AoC. You have to remember that when WAR is released AoC will be a lot more polished than it is right now (and it had what is considered a smooth launch in MMOs) so it will have to contend with that (along with WoTLK).

Sure, RvR sounds fun, but I don't know if it'll have the content to keep up. And honestly I know quite a few who are simply tired of the "faction vs faction" nonsense.

Point being, WAR will have two difficult enemies upon release -- Age of Conan (which will have numerous fixings, including their updated PvP system and more leveling zones) and WoW, which will probably be releasing WoTLK right around WAR.

And if they delay it, well, by that time I'm not so sure.

Syp said on 1:57PM 6-06-2008

"They need to get the game out the door now."

"If they get it done, and done right, they will make a serious mint."

Well, which one do you want? You can't have both. And for the record, I firmly stand behind Mythic's decision to postpone until they get everything "done right", especially considering the pressure they must be under from fans like you, EA and Lich King. I think that shows a lot of integrity and confidence.

Brian! said on 2:08PM 6-06-2008

Tricky for them right?

Man business is hard. Production is even harder. It is a constant battle of making the perfect piece of art, yet delivering on-time and on-budget.

There is not a movie, game, commercial, video, print ad, novel, magazine... well you get the picture... that does not have that same exact thing to worry about. Heck, even manufacturers go through the same thing. Canon, Pentax, Fujifilm, etc... they all release cameras around the same time. They have to make the best camera they can, yet still get it out in the market.

All I can say is that Mythic is a company that knows this already, they have a proven track record. Really, they are seriously promoting the crap out of the game in probably the best way I have seen anyone promote an MMO. That is a rough game to play though. They just need to get it out the door soon because more promotion is just going to keep raising our expectations that they probably can't meet anyway now.

David said on 2:01PM 6-06-2008

I disagree with the whole get it out now. One reason for Blizzards success is they take the time to polish their content. There may not be enough of it but what there is is good.

AOC released early and yes it grabbed huge numbers but I personally think most of those people will leave after the honeymoon is over because the game is unfinished.

So take your time Mythic and do it right the number one thing most publishers forget is that you only get one first impression, make it count. And I mean that in a good way.

danarchy said on 2:13PM 6-06-2008

It is kinda funny. Its like when your girlfriend goes away on business, then her trip gets extended. All of a sudden your mental image of her keeps getting better and better, and you start getting more and more anxious for her to get back. Then she gets back and the first day is a whirlwind, the second day you start to notice that she hasnt bleached the hair on her lip recently......
Anticipation of new MMO's is a good and bad thing. A good thing because it raises buzz about the game and gets your IT department at work talking about it. Bad thing because as tasty tidbits are doled out to the media expectation gets raised higher and higher. Till eventually at some point it is impossible for the developers to match the soul quivering event their would be customers are expecting. And then you get the disappointment, and a few hundred disappointed fan boys trolling every single forum and article post to tell everyone how bad the game "sux". I think AoC is suffering this right now. Some had such high expectations of the game that every single flaw, no matter how small, seems like a glowing beacon of the MMO apocalypse.
I am hoping WAR is fun, I miss daoc rvr and I am willing to put up with ALOT to get it back. Beyond that im trying to keep my fevered expectations in check for now.

ScytheNoire said on 2:37PM 6-06-2008

I love the speak from people who aren't in the Beta. From those in the Beta, the story is much different than what those here say. So take these comments with a huge dump truck full of salt.

Vaporware? Ummm, that's rather insulting to even suggest that, as it's a playable Beta that people are enjoying right now. It's not even close to vaporware. I see more vapor coming from ill informed comments here.

You saw two cities and speculate on the rest? Nice job!

Because they didn't show you the PvE end game, you call that a problem? What, should they just show you everything?

Every one who compares the game to WoW is just another moron. You know what's a lot like WoW? AoC. Seriously, it's a lot more like WoW than WAR is. Play them all and find out. Truth is though, WoW took for a lot of other games, so WoW is actually like EQ DAoC, UO, and all the other MMO and non-MMO games that came before it. Because ALL games take from other games. It's the evolution of gaming. You build from the old.

Oh, the graphics. The screenshots of the game on LOW settings without the lighting or shader effects. Those graphics? The one's that haven't been turned on yet? Give me a break.

And LotRO players can say they have something like the ToK, but they don't. It's not in any other game out there. Not even close.

I'm so sick of people talking out of their ass and not having any clue what they are talking about.

Need to hire some people who have a clue and will talk about that which they know, rather than that which they don't and keep on comparing everything to WoW, just because it has a huge audience of players. Warcraft was a direct rip off of Warhammer. How quickly though the fanboi's forget that.

Michael Zenke said on 2:41PM 6-06-2008

Hey there Scythe; I think you sort of missed the point here. What I was trying to do was clarify what I've heard people talking about, adding my own impressions given what I saw last week.

Thanks for reading!

Mark said on 2:42PM 6-06-2008

I'm really enjoying AoC. Despite what some have stated AoC is an MMORPG and feels as such, especially after level 20. Funcom has done a great job of updating the client, and by end of July most content issues will be addressed (I have not seen any major bugs or lack of content myself). If Funcom keeps up the good work AoC will retain most of it''s subscribers.

My concern with WAR is that the game is aesthetically just a notch above WoW. The game is releasing 4 years after Blizzard's behemoth but looks like it should have been released 3 years ago. So graphically (especially launching on the heels of the Oblivionesque AoC) WAR is not that impressive.

Secondly, the PvE game sounds like it is more of an afterthought and will be an area of weakness in WAR. I'm not talking about the Public Quest system which is a great game design element. I'm just not sure Warhammer's lore will translate into a good PvE game. I may get flamed for this opinion but I'll bet that's a concern when reviews come out.

All that said, I've bought the WAR CE. I'm a huge Mythic RvR fan, and let's face it, that is what is going to sell this game. I'm done with WoW and it's awful PvP game. Not even WotLK will get me back. Loved the game for the 3 years I put into it. AoC, WAR, and Bioware's new MMO will be the games to play for the next 3+ years.

possum said on 2:48PM 6-06-2008

World of dailycraft is a non issue for any mmo currently coming out. the lich king will simply be another 3 day spaz fest in which on the third day the lich king will be on farm status.

WOW is this.....time invested, players wont walk away from this until they are sure, they are simply to weak minded.

warhammer, i dont know, let the AOC buzz quiet down or wait and release for a truly smooth launch? AOC did NOT have a smooth launch, they were smooth at multiple coverups with the problems and bugs they are still having.

a smooth launch is one in which the public gives countless laudatory comments and the game has nary a problem, AOC was far from this. funcom's customer service sucks hind tit, myriad bugs, myriad bugged quests and thousands of screwed up cd keys, the biggest coverup to date.

i am still waiting on an mmo "smooth launch", warhammer, you up for it?

DM said on 9:57PM 6-06-2008

I'm worried about combat/classes. With so many classes, it often seems like they're more gimmicky than real, fleshed out and individualized experiences. If that fundamental experience isn't there and durable (will you want to manipulate the same mechanic for your toon's lifetime?), I doubt the rest will matter much.

Snafzg said on 3:55PM 6-06-2008

Lol, Scythe went off the fanboi deep end there! ;) Totally missed the point of this article. Zenke is a genius and spend days inside the belly of the beast. Just because you're a beta tester doesn't mean you got even remotely the same kind of access he did.

Have you had one-on-one conversations with the devs? Probably not. As a beta tester myself, I'm quite sure EA Mythic keeps information from us as well. Why would they spill all their beans, as you say? :P

Slogo said on 4:04PM 6-06-2008

The problem I have with Warhammer is that it's 'more of the same' with some minor tweaks.

No AoC isn't doing everything right and it does have many bugs or things that don't come across as quite so hot but it does have the richest combat system I've seen in an MMORPG to date.

I know many people are going to jump on me and say it's just like every other mmo but with annoying auto attacks but that's not the case. The many different defense mechanisms provide for tons of depth in the combat system and someone who masters them can really wreck havoc over those that don't.

That depth for PvP is what's going to keep me playing AoC.

Plus GvG is a heck of a lot more fun than RvR.

SomeDude said on 4:11PM 6-06-2008

GVG is not more fun than RVR if it was I'd still be playing the same old thing in WoW.

Warhammer is not more of the same, if it was it'd be all BG's and arenas and no world PVP (i.e. WoW).

RvR might not be your bag and if not then there are at least 2 games that meet your requirements (WoW and AoC). For those of us that like large scale battles, well we got War coming... though even they have some small scale stuff if you're into that sorta isolated junk.

Atrophis said on 11:13AM 6-08-2008

AoC's combat system is neither revolutionary or even particularily good. Escpecially when it comes to PVP.

After 50 hours playing the game and getting to level 41 on my Conq it really is obvious that the combo system is not the second coming of christ.

Active blocking and shielding? I can say i have never once bothered with either in PVE or PVP, as they are completely useless. Even more so for the dodging moves that waste loads of stamina but barely give any effect.

The combo system boils down to pressing 4 or 5 keys to do what 1 key in any other MMO would do. That doesnt make it more involved, it just makes it more fiddley to get an ability off.

PVP comes down to keeping my enemy knocked down or snared and damaging him, this is the same for all other classes.

Now dont get me wrong, im having fun with AoC, but i will be dropping it immediately as soon as WAR comes, if not long before. The bugs are building up to be game breaking and despite what people are claiming, they are NOT being fixed at a decent rate. None of the patches since release have fixed anything of import except maybe traders. Each patch has actually increased the bugs in the game. Couple this with lack of content and quests at certain level ranges, many broken and unfinished instances, missing seige warfare, broken guild cities, lack of zones, class imbalances and many broken skills, spells and feats. AoC is as far from a smooth launch as you could get. The only thing smooth is server performance.

Slogo said on 4:24PM 6-06-2008

Uh... If your first MMO was WoW than Warhammer may not be more of the same but to me it is.

WoW is not RvR, at least not done right. WoW is a MMORPG with each server split in half. You compete more against your own faction/realm in WoW than you do the opposing realm.

Warhammer has the same combat mechanisms (click/hit ability, do ability) with some neat things on top. Overall though it's still the same combat. There's no completely new aspect (like active blocking, shielding, etc.) in Warhammer like you have in AoC. All warhammer is doing is taking the best of the the last 10+ years of 'standard' MMORPG combat and putting together a very nice looking implementation of it.

RvR and Sieging is not new (DAoC). City siege are new but it's just a new spin on the RvR/Keep sieging. Again it's more of a tweak than something revolutionary.

GvG is also quite capable of large battle (see Lineage 2). Suggesting that WoW is 'my cup of tea' because I prefer GvG to RvR is kind of weird to me. That's like suggesting I'd like My Little Pony Online =/. RvR is better to me than WoW's PvP which is better to me than a game like EQ2 but I still enjoy GvG the most.

If you don't enjoy GvG, which is perfectly fine and valid, then Warhammer will likely be great for you.

Granted some of the combat mechanics of AoC aren't new (I believe DnDOnline did them as well) but it's the first game with a big PvP side to it to do it.

I still think Warhammer will be a fantastic game. I just think it'll be a fantastic game that I won't want to play (like WoW) if I can just keep playing AoC.

Bowman said on 4:39PM 6-06-2008

WoW has one BIG Problem. WoW can be BEATEN.

The better your raid mates are, the quicker you'll beat the content. So as an early bird up in the heavens of final boss killers, one thing is painfully obvious. The WoW endgame scheme sucks big time! I'm successful in running out fo content early! Being in a content void for half a year or longer is the worst pay off for being successful.

Of course I could join forces with people, who suck at playing the game and be stuck on the same content for longer periods of time. Now that would just to trick. Living in blissful ignorance together with all the other good for nothing gimps.

Since PvP endgame has been BROKEN away from the PvE part of the game in TBC, where is my reward for being a successful raider? Ah yeah, I have to deposit my equip in the bank and change into my PvP gear, the same gear that everybody has.

What will I do with this PvP gear? Will I join an epic faction battle for world dominance? No! I will join a team of two to five people. We will be dependent on each other to be able to play meaningful PvP from now on. So again, tedious planning and organizing play dates. Great fun! Like being married to some semi stranger. Oh yeah, and the PvP endgame happens in three little spaces.

I hate, what World of Warcraft has turned into. Meaningless factions and 'World Wrestling Entertainment' level of PvP. I have worked hard, to get into a raid, that is good at playing the game. The reward for beating the game was, that it began to suck early. Hurray for that shitty piece of game design.

WoW has made it clear to me, it doesn't want me. It's a casual gamers world, where being good at it, breaks it. Go figure.

Bowman said on 5:31PM 6-06-2008

AoC

The melee combat mechanics are extremly fun for 1v1 fights. That being said, there are lots of games better suited for 1v1 fun, if it doesn't have to be a MMO. Street Fighter IV anyone?

I have little exerience with larger fights, but the lack of survivability is a big problem, that I had with group vs group combat. I often died, without knowing, what just hit me. Feeling helpless and clueless sucks.

Balancing is nowhere near being in a healthy state. Assassins more or less oneshot most people straight out of stealth and Priests of Mitra are nearly unkillable.

The class mechanics are for the most part awfully boring and in many cases flatout broken for group play. I have played only melees up to now. Out of stamina anyone?

Nobody can deny, that Age of Conan is a true beauty. It comes at a steep price though. Age of Conan has multiple instances of the same zones. Now that's, what I call an immersion killer.

Also there are big problems with gathering. It's close to impossible to persue a career in gathering at this point. If I'd be into this kind of gameplay, that would be enough to be gamebraking. Crafting is dependent on gathering. I don't see this working out at all for now.

So all, that works fine at the moment, is questing. The same old kill X of Y, bring A to B quests, that I've done in so many other games before.

Most group content in dungeons is badly itemized with no viable drops. Itemization generally is done very poorly with very little viable gear.

The list of little problems goes on. Some of the problems I've encounterd could be gamebraking, depending on what kind of player you are. For me, the sum of all the little and big problems is gamebraking. I won't be paying to play after the initial 30 days of gametime, that I got out of the box.

I can't stomach to level all the way to 80. The flow of quests is horrible. Except for Connalls' Valley I haven't found any really compelling questing area. Most of them were just a mixed bag of this and that, without telling a big story.

My respect to Funcom on working really hard on their game after release. Their speed at fixing the technical issues is impressive. The games' performance has doubled since release for me. Keep up the good work.

My disrespect to Eidos. Shame on you for not going the whole stretch. You just have us players pay for the completion of the game, rather than delivering a ready for release product. Another half a year on your purse would have done the trick. Gerstmann scandal anyone?