EVE Evolved: EVE Online PvP vs Age of Conan PvP
Filed under: Fantasy, Sci-fi, Age of Conan, EVE Online, Game mechanics, PvP, Opinion, EVE Evolved
Before I started playing Age of Conan, I had a very strict mindset on how a PvP MMO should and shouldn't work. From my experiences in EVE Online, I was convinced that good open world PvP was not possible with a level system or exotic gear. I was pleasantly surprised to find that although these games are worlds apart, their PvP styles both work and are both fun. In this article, I compare and contrast my PvP experiences so far in Age of Conan with those in EVE Online.
Open world PvP:
One of the main features of both EVE and Age of Conan is an open world PvP scheme that allows players to attack each other anywhere within reason. Age of Conan achieves this scheme by designating certain zones as PvP areas. These areas contain the monsters and quest targets required to level up, making players to put themselves at risk to reap the rewards of levelling up quickly. Towns and the areas around them are designated safe areas where PvP is physically impossible.
Read on as I discuss important PvP issues ranging from death penalty and group gameplay to equipment types and game server model.
EVE Online uses a similar risk versus reward system but the way it's implemented is quite different. Rather than designating certain areas where PvP is possible, EVE starts with the assumption that it's possible everywhere and works from there. PvP will never be physically impossible but punishments are levied for doing so in areas that are meant to be safer. For example, in systems with a high security level (from 0.5 to 1.0), a CONCORD police task force will destroy your ship for attacking someone without cause.
The basis of a general open world PvP scheme is one of risk versus reward. Designated safe areas where PvP is impossible or severely limited exist but they have limited rewards. Areas with higher rewards such as good harvestable resources or better enemies to kill tend to carry a higher risk of being attacked. This scheme encourages players to put themselves at risk of PvP in search of higher rewards, which encourages PvP as a whole. While EVE and Conan both implement the risk versus reward scheme differently, it's definitely present in both games.
Death penalty and risk:
Death penalty is possibly one of the biggest factors influencing the quality of PvP in an MMO. There are two different schools of thought when dealing with it, both with their own advantages and disadvantages. Age of Conan follows the light penalty school of thought and currently applies no penalty to death in PvP. In stark contrast, death in EVE Online has always been a very harsh affair. Your ship is completely destroyed when you're killed and you'll need to buy a new one. The huge difference between these two approaches to death penalty has a significant impact on both the quality and the quantity of PvP.
A harsh death penalty ensures that victories are meaningful, that killing an enemy inflicts significant loss or lasting damage on him. The quality of PvP is arguably enhanced by the knowledge that with each fight, something is on the line. This risk of loss is what causes the very real adrenaline rush associated with EVE PvP. Unfortunately, significant loss also turns a lot of players off the idea of PvP and increases the downtime between fights. This decreases the quantity of PvP and the number of players that will be interested in getting involved.
A light death penalty has the opposite effect, increasing the quantity of PvP dramatically. With no risk of loss, players are encouraged to engage in PvP as much as possible for fun. This casual approach makes finding fights easy but makes each individual fight less meaningful. The inability to do lasting damage to your enemies means concepts such as world-changing wars simply won't work. Because of the lack of death penalty, PvP in Age of Conan feels more like a deathmatch than players of other PvP-based MMOs may be used to. I'll be damned if it's not fun, though.
Item systems that support PvP:
Despite what the hardcore players amongst us might want, a system of losing your character or items on death won't work well with every MMO. If gear makes a significant impact on gameplay and replacement gear is not easily available, PvP could become a rich-man's game where only people who can afford to replace their expensive gear stand a chance. EVE Online bypasses this problem using a generic item system that actively supports replacement of lost gear.
Every Dominix class battleship is the same as every other Dominix and every Heavy Neutron Blaster II is exactly the same. This system works extremely well as it allows players to easily create a complete replica of their lost ship. The large number of players in EVE's single server also means that supplies of replacement ships and modules on the market are always high.
Rather than using a generic item system, Age of Conan follows the standard fantasy MMO approach to gear. Basic versions of weapons and armour with no special abilities exist but higher quality items are very varied in ability. You could get a helmet that grants electricity resistance or another that offers increased constitution stat.
Finding a replacement that's identical to the one you lost wouldn't always be possible in Conan. Additionally, unique items and quest rewards would not be easily replaceable. For those reasons, item loss on death would never really work well in Age of Conan PvP. Fantasy MMOs in the past that have included item loss on death such as Ultima Online and Runescape have always used generic item systems to support it.
Server Models:
When comparing EVE to any other MMO, the topic of the server model always comes up. The fact that EVE has one single, massive server to play in with no instancing or sharding has a huge impact on the goals and purpose of PvP. Having only one server means that all the players are thrown in together under a single set of rules. You can't choose to sign up to a non-PvP server or transfer to another server when you've made a few enemies on your current one.
With so many players living in a finite number of star systems, competition over resources is a very strong motivator for people to kill each other. The lack of instancing in EVE encourages competition over resources and space. If all the asteroid belts in your favourite system are mined out, you can't just spawn a new copy of the system to mine in. More importantly, you can't switch to Rancer Instance 2 and avoid the death trap that's usually there.
Age of Conan's approach mirrors the fantasy MMO norm, using a large number of servers with different PvP rulesets. Players have the option of signing up to a server that has open world PvP or to a regular PvE server that doesn't. Making PvP an opt-in system ensures that everyone on a PvP server is interested In bashing in people's skulls, making it easier to find a fight when you want one.
Group PvP:
One thing that both EVE Online and Age of Conan share with regard to PvP is the effectiveness of groups. The abilities of a group of players scales linearly with the number of players in it. Two players will kill someone twice as quickly as one player on his own, giving larger groups a decisive PvP advantage over smaller ones. In EVE Online gangs can get as large as several hundred players and issues of game balance exist as a result.
Alliance level PvP in EVE with hundreds of players on either side takes the form of territorial control over the resource-rich lawless areas of space. At present, Age of Conan does not have support for large groups and its guild based "city sieging" is not currently enabled.
In summary:
EVE Online and Age of Conan are both heavily PvP-oriented MMOs and while they take vastly different approaches to PvP, both approaches are successful in their own way. The high-consequence PvP in EVE leads to infrequent but meaningful conflicts with adrenaline pumping and guns blazing. In contrast, PvP in Conan is a fast-paced fantasy deathmatch where it's as fun to have your head chopped off as to burn someone alive. Where EVE Online would have me biting my nails nervously when attacked, Age of Conan has me laughing as a maniac smashes my head in with two clubs.
Age of Conan is still new and there are a lot of broken spells, feats and abilities but the core PvP gameplay is definitely a lot of fun. Large guilds are currently building up cities in preparation for the time when city sieging is implemented. With sieges on the horizon and talk of added consequence for PvP, the game promises to evolve its PvP in the coming months. There could be good times ahead for Age of Conan and I for one will be watching the game's development closely.
Open world PvP:
One of the main features of both EVE and Age of Conan is an open world PvP scheme that allows players to attack each other anywhere within reason. Age of Conan achieves this scheme by designating certain zones as PvP areas. These areas contain the monsters and quest targets required to level up, making players to put themselves at risk to reap the rewards of levelling up quickly. Towns and the areas around them are designated safe areas where PvP is physically impossible.
Read on as I discuss important PvP issues ranging from death penalty and group gameplay to equipment types and game server model.
EVE Online uses a similar risk versus reward system but the way it's implemented is quite different. Rather than designating certain areas where PvP is possible, EVE starts with the assumption that it's possible everywhere and works from there. PvP will never be physically impossible but punishments are levied for doing so in areas that are meant to be safer. For example, in systems with a high security level (from 0.5 to 1.0), a CONCORD police task force will destroy your ship for attacking someone without cause.The basis of a general open world PvP scheme is one of risk versus reward. Designated safe areas where PvP is impossible or severely limited exist but they have limited rewards. Areas with higher rewards such as good harvestable resources or better enemies to kill tend to carry a higher risk of being attacked. This scheme encourages players to put themselves at risk of PvP in search of higher rewards, which encourages PvP as a whole. While EVE and Conan both implement the risk versus reward scheme differently, it's definitely present in both games.
Death penalty and risk:

Death penalty is possibly one of the biggest factors influencing the quality of PvP in an MMO. There are two different schools of thought when dealing with it, both with their own advantages and disadvantages. Age of Conan follows the light penalty school of thought and currently applies no penalty to death in PvP. In stark contrast, death in EVE Online has always been a very harsh affair. Your ship is completely destroyed when you're killed and you'll need to buy a new one. The huge difference between these two approaches to death penalty has a significant impact on both the quality and the quantity of PvP.
A harsh death penalty ensures that victories are meaningful, that killing an enemy inflicts significant loss or lasting damage on him. The quality of PvP is arguably enhanced by the knowledge that with each fight, something is on the line. This risk of loss is what causes the very real adrenaline rush associated with EVE PvP. Unfortunately, significant loss also turns a lot of players off the idea of PvP and increases the downtime between fights. This decreases the quantity of PvP and the number of players that will be interested in getting involved.
A light death penalty has the opposite effect, increasing the quantity of PvP dramatically. With no risk of loss, players are encouraged to engage in PvP as much as possible for fun. This casual approach makes finding fights easy but makes each individual fight less meaningful. The inability to do lasting damage to your enemies means concepts such as world-changing wars simply won't work. Because of the lack of death penalty, PvP in Age of Conan feels more like a deathmatch than players of other PvP-based MMOs may be used to. I'll be damned if it's not fun, though.
Item systems that support PvP:

Despite what the hardcore players amongst us might want, a system of losing your character or items on death won't work well with every MMO. If gear makes a significant impact on gameplay and replacement gear is not easily available, PvP could become a rich-man's game where only people who can afford to replace their expensive gear stand a chance. EVE Online bypasses this problem using a generic item system that actively supports replacement of lost gear.
Every Dominix class battleship is the same as every other Dominix and every Heavy Neutron Blaster II is exactly the same. This system works extremely well as it allows players to easily create a complete replica of their lost ship. The large number of players in EVE's single server also means that supplies of replacement ships and modules on the market are always high.
Rather than using a generic item system, Age of Conan follows the standard fantasy MMO approach to gear. Basic versions of weapons and armour with no special abilities exist but higher quality items are very varied in ability. You could get a helmet that grants electricity resistance or another that offers increased constitution stat.
Finding a replacement that's identical to the one you lost wouldn't always be possible in Conan. Additionally, unique items and quest rewards would not be easily replaceable. For those reasons, item loss on death would never really work well in Age of Conan PvP. Fantasy MMOs in the past that have included item loss on death such as Ultima Online and Runescape have always used generic item systems to support it.
Server Models:
When comparing EVE to any other MMO, the topic of the server model always comes up. The fact that EVE has one single, massive server to play in with no instancing or sharding has a huge impact on the goals and purpose of PvP. Having only one server means that all the players are thrown in together under a single set of rules. You can't choose to sign up to a non-PvP server or transfer to another server when you've made a few enemies on your current one.
With so many players living in a finite number of star systems, competition over resources is a very strong motivator for people to kill each other. The lack of instancing in EVE encourages competition over resources and space. If all the asteroid belts in your favourite system are mined out, you can't just spawn a new copy of the system to mine in. More importantly, you can't switch to Rancer Instance 2 and avoid the death trap that's usually there.
Age of Conan's approach mirrors the fantasy MMO norm, using a large number of servers with different PvP rulesets. Players have the option of signing up to a server that has open world PvP or to a regular PvE server that doesn't. Making PvP an opt-in system ensures that everyone on a PvP server is interested In bashing in people's skulls, making it easier to find a fight when you want one.
Group PvP:

One thing that both EVE Online and Age of Conan share with regard to PvP is the effectiveness of groups. The abilities of a group of players scales linearly with the number of players in it. Two players will kill someone twice as quickly as one player on his own, giving larger groups a decisive PvP advantage over smaller ones. In EVE Online gangs can get as large as several hundred players and issues of game balance exist as a result.
Alliance level PvP in EVE with hundreds of players on either side takes the form of territorial control over the resource-rich lawless areas of space. At present, Age of Conan does not have support for large groups and its guild based "city sieging" is not currently enabled.
In summary:
EVE Online and Age of Conan are both heavily PvP-oriented MMOs and while they take vastly different approaches to PvP, both approaches are successful in their own way. The high-consequence PvP in EVE leads to infrequent but meaningful conflicts with adrenaline pumping and guns blazing. In contrast, PvP in Conan is a fast-paced fantasy deathmatch where it's as fun to have your head chopped off as to burn someone alive. Where EVE Online would have me biting my nails nervously when attacked, Age of Conan has me laughing as a maniac smashes my head in with two clubs.
Age of Conan is still new and there are a lot of broken spells, feats and abilities but the core PvP gameplay is definitely a lot of fun. Large guilds are currently building up cities in preparation for the time when city sieging is implemented. With sieges on the horizon and talk of added consequence for PvP, the game promises to evolve its PvP in the coming months. There could be good times ahead for Age of Conan and I for one will be watching the game's development closely.


















Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Biophazer242 said on 11:35PM 6-08-2008
Nice article. PVP can really make or break a game for me, I enjoy PVE but a non-programmed human opponent adds a fresh ingredient to what would otherwise just be an RPG.
Have not decided where I stand on AoC PVP as I am only lvl 21 and have only done about 20 casual fights, but from what I have seen thus far it seems good. I am curious as to the PVP xp rewards and the types of equipment available from it. I remember when I first read about the 'blood tokens' system for this game a long time ago and being able to earn tokens from PVP and lose tokens in PVP, and thinking that it gave a nice edge to combat and true consequence, but that was abandoned for just PVP XP.
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Coherent said on 12:38AM 6-09-2008
So which model is more fun? The only thing that supports the EVE PVP model is the thought that you've seriously hurt your opponent when you win a pvp battle. So... the EVE model is built on sadism?
I have to enjoy hurting people to gain satisfaction from winning a PVP battle in EVE Online?
I have to say that the AoC pvp model has been very satisfying. Sometimes I win, sometimes the enemy wins, but either way I can laugh about it and not worry about winning or losing, just fight for fun.
As for large, world-changing battles, I disagree that this could not be implemented with AoC's model. You just have to create a system that keeps track of factional victories and then assign a victory or defeat system that assigns appropriate consequences to each.
True you can't bludgeon your enemies into goo, but only sadists care about actually hurting people versus simple victory.
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Ash said on 7:42AM 6-09-2008
I don't entirely agree.
If you're likely to cause serious damage to another player, or atleast major major inconvenience you are more likely to think about the attack.
Take, for example, if in AoC, or WoW, which seem similar in PVP, they implemented permenant equipment loss and you went around griefing, what would happen? Eventually you'd make a ton of enemies and you'd be killed on sight regularly, meaning your decent equipment would be utterly destroyed on a regular basis. It gives more meaning to PVP, most players are likely to take serious consideration as to whether or not to attack because the repecussions of random ganking becomes significant as you make enemies.
Low penalties to death in PVP make it less meaningful and more annoying, in many ways, as you are far more likely to just lash out at people at random, and be randomly killed more, it is more likely to encourage killing for a reason, not just, I'm bored, oh look some lower level *smack*
brokenscope said on 1:53PM 6-09-2008
In eve, I have PVPed for many reasons.
Protecting alliance assets, providing security for alliance mining and logistical operations, inflicting monetary and morale damage on enemy alliances. For most of those, I don't pvp for any kind of profit, my Alliance supports me by refunding me a basic ship loadout based on the ship i was flying. I lose some cash and there is almost no chance of profit.
Now, when me and 1 to 10 other guys go for a roaming gang through enemy territory, there is a chance I will profit. Since its not an alliance sanctioned operation we don't have to turn in dropped modules and loot from ships we kill. These can give some profit, but mostly exist to be fun and inflict monetary damage on those that my alliance sees as enemies.
Solo pvp for me was rather profitable, typically I would hunt for enemy miners and cargo ships. A lgood run might result in me inflicting 100million isk of damage while one really risking 20 million. I also get to keep anything an enemy ship drops. Typically this would be tech 2 and faction items (Wow Blues basically) and occasionally i might even get a deadspace or complex item off an unwary, but rich ratter( Purples basically). This provided fun for me, and furthered the goals of my alliance. This made my alliance safer, which in turn gives me more time to make money via ratting. What helps the alliance typically trickles back to the individual players.
My Corporation left its alliance. Right now I pvp to keep the small little dead end pocket safe and free of enemies. If people feel like they will die whenever they go near my corps space, its tends to keep them away, and thus my corp makes more money via mining, ratting, and manufacturing. Once again, it trickles back to me, and I make money from the pvp. There was also a point where a neutral entity was cutting into the business of my corp. They had been unfriendly before, so my corp declared them as a legal target. While my corp lowered prices, I and other corpies, killed their miners and disrupted their logistics. They eventually left the area.
I guess the point of my longwinded story is, people who pvp solo pvp for pvp sake or to grief people.
People in corporations and alliances tend to pvp for the benefit of their alliance or corp which in the end benefits them.
Few people directly make all their income from pvp itself.
Its not sadism, its the fact that, when you kill someone, you both put something on the line and you won. They may not have that ship ready to fight again for a week, unless they are rich.
No game except for eve makes me start sweating and gets my heart racing because I might get killed.
Brendan Drain said on 2:58PM 6-09-2008
I find both systems are fun for different reasons and in different ways. EVE Online makes your fights matter and as Ash already pointed out, the risk of loss means that people don't engage each other at every available opportunity. It's not about sadism or enjoying inflicting losses, though I know some people may fall into that category. The very real losses opens doors to avenues of gameplay that are otherwise not possible such as piracy, wars and territorial politics. Empires rise and fall based on the outcome of large-scale pvp campaigns.
Age of Conan is a casual fantasy deathmatch. When you come across someone lower level than you, there's no reason not to kill them. As you say, though, it's as fun to be killed as to kill. I find myself having more fun in AOC PvP lately because it's new and I can pick it up and put it down whenever I want.
I still prefer EVE's system, I wouldn't have played for over four years if I didn't. The Empyrean Age patch tomorrow is going to add a lot more PvP to my gameplay which should also be a lot of fun.
ScytheNoire said on 2:21AM 6-09-2008
Weird to compare these two games, as I don't think there is any other MMO, at least no mainstream one, that compares to EVE Online. It's all on it's own.
I still don't think AoC gets PvP right, because in the grand scheme, it's overall effect and purpose, are limited.
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Brendan Drain said on 1:51PM 6-09-2008
With both games lauded for their PvP gameplay, I decided they'd be two good games to compare on their relative merits. I play both games and have found the PvP in both fun for completely different reasons. I didn't initially think AOC's PvP would be good but it was a lot of fun in its own way.
I still prefer EVE's PvP style, of course, and the Empyrean Age expansion should help with the long downtimes between fights.
Aury said on 12:18PM 6-09-2008
Hm. I'm still waiting on an Ultima Online 2.0. It would combine the best from both worlds..well, hopefully. It would have to be under a different name though, as EA owns Ultima Online :( Considering they're slaughtered the original (ninjas, making it 3d, etc) I don't think they could be trusted with a new one.
Anyways, great (and interesting) post. My Age of Conan impressions are at my blog ( http://trashflavoredtrash.com )
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Coherent said on 4:02AM 6-09-2008
Holy shit, that "Clear Skies" video was the most awesome thing I've ever seen. If EVE was half as cool and interesting as that video, I'd actually play it!
I hope he makes more. I'll be waiting... and watching when he does.
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Dattebayo - Derketo Black Throne said on 5:26PM 7-13-2008
I think there is many things in AoC that makes it a great game for PVP action. AoC have a platform that can allow as much sabatoge and cut throat type of PVP as in Eve.
One of the moments I will always remember in a MMO is the fall of the Bruce Alliance. There was a full corp of meta gamer that ended up getting into the ranks and destroyed an equivalent of $16,000 US and in result collapsed the rules of Fountain in one fell swoop. They have been planning this strike for over a year and have been waiting to make their move.
There are not many games that have such intensity and cut throatness to have hackers and spys for vents, corps, and forums.
I find that big moves and operations can be possible in Age of Conan. Especially with the cost of Battle Keeps and Legendary keeps which are soon to come, will be an exponential lost depending if it is T2, T3, or legendary. Operations like this can promote meta gaming and have such intensity as Eve.
I find that it isn't about losing experience or having a negative effect in a solo aspect for AoC, but more as losing a Guild City as a whole which is a very big loss. I find it true about Eve as well, that a single player really cannot lose a really significant amount (unless of course you are dumb enough to fly larger T2 ships into hostile areas) vs. the amount one can lose through a corporate battle or espionage.
P.S. Full T2 city materials = Iron Granite Yew Electrum
TOTALS 7000 24320 12480 2100
Full T3 city materials = Duskmetal Basalt Oak Gold
TOTALS 101,000 254,200 125800 20600
For a full T3 city, we are looking at a total of 547,500 Units of Materials for a full Teir 3 Keep in South poitain. (Each city has different amount, but it is fairly close in number).
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Tom-AZ said on 3:35AM 8-20-2008
While there are always things to disagree on regarding this topic.
This article shows a deep understanding of current day PvP systems and I applaud you.
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