Warhammer Online community claims contribution system a sham
Filed under: Fantasy, Warhammer Online, News items
The claim -- which has discussions threads at forums, along with screenshots -- is that when a player enters a zone, they are given a dice roll that applies to them until they leave the zone or log out. This means that a player who gets first will continue to do so, no matter what, until another player with a higher roll comes along.
So is it true, does contribution not work as advertised? Looking at a multitude of player reactions, it seems as though rolls aren't always the same in two PQs or Keep captures -- something that puts a little leak in the theory. We're not prepared to say yes or no, but this is certainly a worry with this sort of system. If there's one thing people absolutely hate, it's even the slightest feeling that they've somehow been cheated. If there is a glitch in the system somewhere, we hope Mythic will be able to fix it sooner rather than later. However, if there isn't any sort of issue then it may be a good idea for them to point out any flaws or reasons as to why these players are incorrect.WARHAMMMER --
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Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
RanWitScissorz said on 3:10PM 11-24-2008
Contribution has always been broke, I think anyone playing in T4 can definitly attest to it. Everytime I've ever got in the top 5, was when I came into a Lord battle at the last minute and did not help with doors or anything. All the times I was there for the entire siege I ended up the bottom, the system is borked, I'm surprised this is just being realized now.
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nyklon said on 3:13PM 11-24-2008
i'm not sure about live now but in beta i could see that i had massive amounts of contribution and would stay in a pq and consistently stay at the top of the contribution amount. When the roll came at the end i would always be at the bottom. I was hoping that this had been fixed in live cause i do plan to start playing WAR at some point and while this isn't a make/break for anyone i would hope it is disappointing to spend time doing a pq and have someone who waltzes up and smacks the last guy of a 3 part pq once and manages to win the top loot bag.
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Jack said on 3:21PM 11-24-2008
PQs and Keep captures and so on do get boring real quick the contribution system most of the time did look unfair to me so I got sick of them real quick . I make it to the cap level... And like the game does mostly have only boring pvp endgame I dropped it 2 months ago 2 days before my free month was complete. (I do hate pvp and did buy it for the pve content what a mistake that was). Big disappointment !!!
Now playing Warcraft Wotlk.... Blizzard did deliver on that one the people already 80 just rusting there is so much content in Wotlk I think even more them in the complete Warhammer game... I am not a fanboy but its true that blizzard does deliver and in its 4 years live time no other mmo was even near so good and easy to pick up as World of warcraft was and is today.
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DeathMutant said on 3:44PM 11-24-2008
This guy, Jack, never gives up. Whenever there is a chance to slam WAR (and any other MMOG, for that matter) and praise WoW, he's there. I sincerely hope Blizzard recognizes his efforts and rewards him well --because he deserves it!
Mr. Pickles said on 4:19PM 11-24-2008
Bullspit you're not a fanboy. In the other artical earlier about Slow and Steady you blather on about how WotLK is the "best expansion for an MMO ever" and go on to say:
""""You can better talk more about the slow development cycle and rush jobs of other mmo's. Games like Warhammer, LOTR, AOC that still not are 100% stable and have bugs and still not are patch out. And where the hell are the other city's of Warhammer??""""
First off, LOTRO is very stable and a great game right now (just released their 1st expansion). AoC I must agree is crap, but that has to do with Funcom's incompetance. Warhammer Online may not be 100% stable, but it's only freakin' 2 and 1/2 months old. It is stable on higher-end PCs and is being optimised for lower-end PCs (a new patch Saturday improved it even more so). And, if you're kept up to date on things, you'd know that the other cities were cut during beta because of a design flaw and 'might' be introduced later but most likely will not.
To point out something: WoW said hero classes in it's beta prior to launch in 2004...it's 2008 and they finally get in their late hero class (singular). Siege warfare was announced in WoW's beta, and is just now getting into the game,....4 years later.
As for your comment above on how "I am not a fanboy but its true that blizzard does deliver":
Where's the Lich King raid that's supposed to be in? Oh, that's right, the KEY feature of WotLK is not yet in-game. Just like how for TBC they didn't have Arenas or the Black Temple in-game until a month or 3 after it's launch. That isn't adding in content, or stretching it...that's called "bait-n'-switch". All they're doing is making sure that their subscribers keep paying month after month so that they can touch the promised content.
As for you trying WAR and not liking that, I doubt you even tried it. But, if you did, ...why did you go into a PvP game expecting strong PvE to play? That's like going into a McDonald's and expecting a taco; it's just not going to happen.
P.S. Work on your English, your fanboy age is showing.
MightyIdle said on 4:57PM 11-24-2008
You played two days shy of your free month and you are slamming the end game? You are the man if you can reach max level and soak in the entire end game in 28 days.
Barth said on 4:00PM 11-24-2008
Right because no MMO should ever be called out for errors, or outright lies. There's a reason WoW is far and away the most popular MMO, and it's not because it's "easy."
Anyways the reason people are getting different rolls when in the same zone is because others are joining the seiges who have higher rolls. The most damning of all the evidence is the guy who ran around as a chicken getting #1 rolls over and over.
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Abriael said on 3:07AM 11-25-2008
i'm talking overall content. Warhammer most definately hold the record for the most content at launch against any other competitor. Also, not only with the most content overall, but also with the most varied content.
Also, you might not have given a good look to the world, I'm afraid. Counting all the zones, it's bigger than the worlds of all the MMOs you named. At the time of their launch of course.
Maybe you're counting only the part of the world you visit whithin a single faction (provided that absolutely nothing stops you from visiting the opposite side of each zone, you're actually rewarded quite nicely for that), because if you count the whole zones, the warhammer world is definately big for a just launched MMO.
Abriael said on 3:09AM 11-25-2008
bleh, wrong reply. Was supposed to go under Vlatch's message, downstairs.
Abriael said on 4:00PM 11-24-2008
The theory isn't correct. The contribution system DOES work. But it has an hint of truth. At the moment the system has a quite nasty bug that in some cases (not in all of them) allows the last player that logged in (if he logs in just before the keep is taken) and/or entered a zone to grab top contribution for the keep (probably stealing the score from someone else). Hopefully the bug will be solved soon. The guys at Wizards & Wenches aren't definately the first ones to notice that.
More than solving the bug, though, hopefully they will completely overhaul the contribution system. Whatever it's based on (damage, healing, damage to the doors...) it can't really be fair or equalized between classes. The factors that contribute to the capture of a keep are too varied and different to find a real way to fairly assess who contributed the most.
The only fair way to assess that is time.
A simple way would be starting to calculate contribution 10 seconds after the door has been damaged first (it'd be nonsensical to have people do a race to the keep to make sure they land the first blow), and since then every character involved has a timer that establishes how much time he spent in the area of the keep during the siege. If they go inactive for more than 5 seconds their contribution decreases. At the end the system sees who has been there the most times and gives them the most contribution. By all means, the system should assume that two characters that have been active during the whole siege contribute exactly the same way to the siege.
In the end, there are too many ways to contribute or even be decisive to the capture of a siege that aren't quantifiable at all. Just think how much someone that spends the whole time guarding the postern door to avoid the incoming enemy to get in contributes. His contribution is definately decisive, but he won't deal a single point of damage to the door of the keep. How do you quantify that?
You can't.
That's why contribution should be measured with time, with diminishing returns if one goes inactive.
often the simplest solutions are the best.
@Jack: sorry mate, are you talking about the content that people burned trough in 3 days? Please...
Warhammer is the MMORPG that has been released with the most content at launch compared to ALL others. WOTLK doesn't even come close in terms of content. Sure, the whole WoW (WoW+BC+WOTLK) has more content, but that's pretty natural. With two expansions warhammer online will probably top that content by a wide margin.
if you HATE PvP the game definately isn't for you, given that a large part of the content is PvP, but it does have a very sizeable PvE component. Some of the dungeons it includes are some of the best ever implemented in a MMORPG (Lost Vale, for instance, is simply fantastic).
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Vlatch said on 4:59PM 11-24-2008
I disagree with you on your point that "Warhammer is the MMORPG that has been released with the most content at launch compared to ALL others." It's simply not true at all.
I'm not sure what comparison you're using, but the size of the gameworld alone was dwarfed by Everquest/Asheron's Call/Dark Age of Camelot, and I'm sure several others.
If you're talking PvE content, then World of Warcraft holds that mark.
I couldn't tell you for certain if you're talking end-game, but Warhammer MAY (and I stress that) be considered the MMO with the most end-game at launch.
This contribution bug - which I agree with you, I think it's a bug - has been around since beta. I hope for the sake of the players they either get it fixed, or go to a combined contribution system that separates damage/healing/support/objectives when it comes to awarding points.
I'm sorry I took this off track a bit, and all comments about the amount of content at launch don't belong here. This is about contribution in WAR. It's broken and needs to be fixed.
That is all.
Tasogare said on 7:44PM 11-25-2008
You can't compare the content levels of an expansion to those of a game that's just released, that's just nonsensical. Not to mention, what content are you talking about in WAR that there's SO much more of than there is in WoW?
PS - Lake Wintergrasp eats WAR alive as far as siege warfare is concerned.
cliff said on 4:39PM 11-24-2008
If that were the case, then the same group of players playing the same PQ with no change in people participating would always get the same result, and I can directly attest to that not being the case even as recently as this weekend when I was in a guild group playing in a PQ. Nobody else was in the area, we ran it several times, we got different results each time.
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Mr Angry said on 4:43PM 11-24-2008
This just needs be cleared up without too much further delay, otherwise it's going to nag at Mythic for a long time to come. They should implement the system if there is no way of measuring success, or it being fair. Mythic added this, so they need to either work through the problems they created for themselves, or just remove it. It's not really fair on players to be told that effort effects their success, when that isn't the case. If it can't be measured, don't bother.
I just can not agree on the amount of content in WAR is larger than any other game at launch, it's not measurable and purely subjective.
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MightyIdle said on 4:54PM 11-24-2008
Based on their running track record, methinks Mythic will do a good job of fixing it quickly if it does turn out to be an issue. They don't seem like the type of folks who will let a problem hang around for six months before they patch it.
Launch content is a bit subjective. Being there for several large MMO launches, WAR seems to be fleshed out rather well. It'll be interesting to see where it is after a year or so. If they keep up their pace, it'll still be spot on.
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InfamousBrad said on 5:24PM 11-24-2008
Is it bugged? Absolutely. That's been proven beyond all shadow of a doubt. We've got report after report of people winning "top contribution" to keep sieges who never lifted a finger, who just stood there. There's even one lovely screenshot of someone who got top contribution in chicken form: -90% stats, no powers but auto-attack.
There are a group of players who have argued, based on their statistical analysis (leavened with heavy cynicism) that Mythic gave up on having an accurate contribution calculation and replaced it with a random number generator just so they could ship on time. Have they proven this? Absolutely not. It's paranoia speaking.
If nothing else, we know that they have a working contribution calculator: the one in scenarios works fine. We also know it weighs most of the right factors, and we've seen them adjust the constants in the formula to give more or less renown in scenarios (calculated the same way as contribution in keep sieges) in response to complaints that the scoring was unfair to some character classes. There's no reason to think that they didn't try to use the same code on keep sieges. We just don't know why it doesn't work.
Mythic may know, and be withholding comment for the same reason all online gaming companies withhold comment about some bugs: the bug may be exploitable.
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Simons said on 2:43AM 11-25-2008
By Jove, I think you've got something there. And knowing Mythic, there will be a fix out sooner rather than later.
(BTW, for those non-WAR-players who read this comment: yes, that's supposed to be a minus and not a tilde next to the 90%. A loss of 90% of stats, not "about 90%." Being chickened is a harsh form of punishment for those who try to enter RvR areas where they would be overpowered.)
Nadril said on 6:00PM 11-24-2008
The contribution system is broken for numerous reasons.
1) Lower levels get MUCH HIGHER rolls on contribution than higher ones. Most of the time it is the level 31-33's that win the gold bags.
2) It's random. Everything, is random. I've tested it -- doing nothing at all (auto attack) and getting 2nd, and then doing all I can and getting...2nd. There might be a slight difference (3rd auto attack, 2nd trying).
The system is broken, and anyone claiming otherwise doesn't have any idea what they are talking about.
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DeathMutant said on 7:18PM 11-24-2008
I believe in #1 above. As a 14 Black Orc on an OpenRvR server I joined a warband retaking the tier 2 keeps in Barak Varr and Marshes of Madness and got the #1 spot on *both* chest rolls! I am sure I barely helped and was the youngest (in terms of levels) in the warband so felt somewhat apologetic in snagging two gold bags.
Snafzg said on 9:40AM 11-25-2008
I believe the public quest contribution system appears to be working properly, however, the keep contribution system is completely messed up.
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