Players the source of Warhammer's problems?
by Seraphina Brennan 
Nov 27th 2008 at 7:00PM
Filed under: Fantasy, Culture, Game mechanics, Endgame, Warhammer Online, Opinion
Hardcore Casual recently put out a very concise view of what is currently holding back a truly enjoyable game experience from Warhammer Online -- the players.The post truly sums up what makes many of the features of Warhammer Online break -- the fact that players aren't playing the game in the way Mythic expected. Instead of enjoying the content and dabbling into all the intricate facets of the game, players are engaged in a grindtastic rush towards the endgame content with the misshapen belief that "the game truly begins at maximum level." As the post itself says, people aren't comfortable with a game that starts at level 1 and not the cap.
But who would have predicted such a reversal from the diversity in content the players usually pine for? Players have obviously forgone doing quests on the main battlefields of Warhammer, electing to engage in constant scenario combat instead. Even when most of the content in Warhammer is extremely solid and engaging while being different from what the rest of the MMO market offers, players have clinged to what they recognized and understand. Even dungeons have gone the way of the dodo in Warhammer, since players have to explore to find the dungeons rather than have a giant neon arrow point the way.
But should Mythic go the route of Blizzard and begin to hand-hold their players towards content? Is that possibly "dumbing down" gameplay, as dungeons were made to be found by explorers and public quests were made to be completed by spontaneous masses of people? If these questions intrigue you, make sure to go and visit Hardcore Casual and check out the article. It's certainly worth a read.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
clem said on 7:17PM 11-27-2008
I tottaly agree with this.
For example in Badlands there is alot of ORVR, yet no drive to actually push to fortresses or city's. Those same players continue to whine, piss and moan about lack of content.
I really hope mythic doesnt dumb down the game at all. let the people who dont understand it leave.
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ahac said on 1:06PM 11-28-2008
Why not compare WAR with WotLK?
Sure... WoW was a lot different 4 years ago than it is now and it had its problems at release.
But WoW didn't have WoW to compete against. Those were different times when it was easier to release a successful MMO but also when success was measured is much smaller subscriber numbers.
If you release an MMO in 2008 then you have to release something that can compete against WotLK (and not WoW 4 years ago).
ahac said on 1:09PM 11-28-2008
Meh.. replied to wrong comment.
Bossy said on 7:24PM 11-27-2008
That's the latest trend in failing MMO's these days:
Now it's the players fault. they don't "know" how to play the game.
Ridicolous and often heard with the War fanboys. A game is as good and as playable as the developpers want it to be.
A good MMORPG lets you play the way YOU want it. The fact is, despite the HYPE in the PC industry this game got, it is NOT a state of the art MMORPG. If you want state of the art MMO, take what Blizzard did with a 4(!) year od game:
- In game cut scenes, full video
- Phasing techniques, the world changes according to your quests and the player's situation and progress !
- PvP with tanks, riding artillery, destructable walls and Keeps, air combat.
- Bind on account gear (which makes you play forever)
The first time you enter a big battle at prime time in the new Wintergrasp PvP zone of Wow, there is NO way you're ever going back to the knocking on the door Keeps in War.
Let's face it WAR does NOT walk like that Paul "hype guy" talked.
Has Mythic even heard of counterspells ?
---- Telling now that its the players fault the game doesn't live up to its hype is so so so sad.
Myhtic - with its complete new MMO - should have the innovations, not Blizzard with a 4 year old game.
Imagine what Blizzard would bring if they could begin in a new world.
Mythic isn't up to it, not by a long shot.
Period.
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Jess said on 7:47PM 11-27-2008
inc WAR fanboys
Mad Dwarf said on 8:41PM 11-27-2008
Considering that "RVR" has less rewards than the senarios that just give combat levels to every noob so they can be compeditive its really not surprising that senarios are more popular.
Warhammer has potentual but if "they" (The devs)were idiotic enough to think that players would to play RVR for less rewards instead of senarios that boost combat levels and give greater rewards I doubt the game will ever get anywhere.
The real reason the dungeons have gone the way of the dodo is the simple unavoidable fact that everyone BUT the fanboys that will be all over these comments have realised.
Warhammer PVE is a pile of llama manure.
Osmosis said on 9:20PM 11-27-2008
Its seriously not fair to compare a game that has been live for 5+ years to a game that has been out for less than 6 months. Given the mechanics that Mythic has in place PLUS their experience with RvR mechanics (ever hear of DAoC?), I trust that as Warhammer matures it will demonstrate how a game built for RvR excels in ways that a game built to quest and raid with RvR as an afterthought fails to hilight.
Ingrod said on 10:43PM 11-27-2008
You talk only about last WoW expansion, in his first four years all these ideas not have presence in WoW... until EA-Mythic anounced that his game will be launched with sieges, you cant compare an only siege BG with have all the game devoted to RvR.
WoW was launched without BG and limited PvP, quest and raids PvE system was copied of EQ, and now sieges are copied from Mythic games.
The problem with WAR is that copied too many WoW things, in the begining WAR RvR was based mainly in BGs, the sieges were introduced along the beta because they recognice that RvR have much more sense and are much more fun with keep sieges needed for territorial control. But they dont remove the BGs and maintain both systems, open RvR and closed RvR compete for the same players.
The second problem are levels and tiers, RvR is based in territorial control not in players leveling throught zones how in WoW, WoW is the most played MMO and many new players walk to other games with a WoW mentality, they login, see the levels and understand that the game objetive are the same that in WoW: reach end game and get epic loot, wrong, the main objetive in WAR is conquer the enemy capital, all the others are secondary. The tier 4 campaing is the real "never ending" game not the leveling. RvR reputation is a great system for player progresion, they can get rid of level based progresion (when you enter in a RvR you are autoleveled to be competitive with people with more level to you, in RvR areas the only real diference between a level 30 and a level 36 in example is gear and skills, not the character level, also you can gain skills througth reputation), in this context leveling tiers becomes an innecesary obstacle and leave half game without use, tier 3 have great RvR content useless when you reach tier 4 (but you faction have advantage in tier 4 if have under control tier 3!)
The real WAR problem is have two main WoW features inside, without WoW style BGs and levels -ok in WoW type MMOs but perhaps not translated to other MMOs types- WAR could be a much best game. With all the maps and content focused in the conquest campaing and not divided by levels or tiers.
But after all actually in my server many people do siege since they introduced new rewards and double xp gain, that is the path for the future. And in some time in the future I have no doubt that we will see tanks and flight machines in WAR, remeber that steantanks and girocopters are tabletop Warhammer features.
indelible said on 5:41AM 12-10-2008
A good MMORPG lets you play the way YOU want it. Really? Are you sure?
If there is one thing Blizzard have proven with World of Warcraft is is that a good MMORPG is a game that HAND HOLDS you to every doorstep you need to be at as you progress. There were and are no free choices in WoW. Everything id forced upon you.
Contrarily, Warhammer Online doesn't have the big neon lights and the giant arrows pointing you in said direction. It all flows in the way you decide you want it to, which is why the game is having problems. Mythic Entertainment created a game where you needed to explore to find the dungeons. They created a game where you needed to explore to do the quests. They refrained from including the big neon arrows because the fan base asked them to. When they did, the fan base proceeded to not take advantage of the features they asked for.
Frankly, it is the players problem. Players AREN'T playing WAR in the correct war. They ARE playing wrong. They are doing so because they requested that Mythic leave out the hand-holding that made them so bitter about WoW. Sadly, Mythic are going to put that hand-holding in. Player choices will become limited and with it will come the age old illusion of choice that Blizzard have done so well. In 1 years time, when players ARE playing correctly, Warhammer will have 1 million+ subs. I mean, the subscriber base for WAR is still growing now.
You can't expect an MMO to be perfect from the get go.
lethality said on 8:28PM 11-27-2008
They're blaming the players? That's rich.
One thing Blizzard gets but Mythic does not is that if players say its broken, then its broken. i.e. don't force what YOU want as a developer... make sure you build what the players want. Mythic isn't able to do that.
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Colin Brennan said on 8:29PM 11-27-2008
No, Mythic is not saying that. It's a introspective question put forth by the blog Hardcore Casual.
halfcaptain said on 10:00PM 11-27-2008
reading a post before you comment is rich too.
scopique said on 10:30PM 11-27-2008
Saying a game is "broken" is like saying "it sucks". It's a matter of opinion. WAR has a lot going for it, but Mythic set the stage for what they wanted the public to view WAR as by focusing on the RVR. They did very little focusing on dungeons and quests, so they attracted a certain demographic - The RvR player. Bemoaning the way that the game was marketed and then blaming the players for showing up in response is assanine.
I enjoy WAR, and since I'm not a min-maxer or anything like that, I enjoy it. My guild enjoys it. We play the game the way we want: if we decide we want to push to the enemy city, we'll do our part. Until then, we'll play the way we enjoy playing. I don't see how that's the "fault of the players".
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Tab said on 9:19PM 11-27-2008
I think that blog has it right. Mythic created a very deep, content rich game, but they players are leapfrogging all the content by playing the same scenarios again and again and again. I play on a crowded server, but the world is still mostly empty. It's a crying shame considering how much effort Mythic put into crafting their world.
Just compare WAR to LotRO -- yes, they are very different games, but in LotRO you run into people in the world all the time. Maybe it's the added carrot of the fellowship quests, or the lack of some easily repeatable game element like scenarios, or there isn't the race to be the biggest fish in the pond the way there is in WAR. I don't know, but it makes for a much more alive and social game.
If everyone is just going to rush to endgame anyways in games like WAR, why even have levels?
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FeendRendor said on 1:13AM 11-29-2008
I've always liked the way Guild Wars did it. There, the level cap was a very low and easily obtained 20. In all honesty, the path to 20 was an introduction to the rest of the game...the meat of the game. WoW has a similar approach, but only in theory. Having all the "fun endgame content" 60...wait....70...oops....80 levels into the game adds a ridiculous grind to the mix. A somewhat fun grind, mind you. I'm not complaining about that. I'm simply saying that most MMO players these days believe the real content is at the end.
I think the game could be salvaged by removing scenarios from tier 4 play. Consider them the training ground for the epic, ORvR fights that would be raged in the end.
Martin said on 10:15PM 11-27-2008
The problem with War is that its PvE SUCKS. The private quests aren't rewarding in xp or gear, and the public quests are a complete grind. Worse you don't even get good gear from taking keeps most of the time. I can't tell you how many times I got nothing more than a stupid seed from the champs and heros. Its classes are completely unbalanced in both PvE and RvR.
These are all fixable problems if Mythic acknowledges the problem and starts fixing it, but I don't think they notice or care. That is why I canceled and won't resume unless and until there is some major changes.
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M said on 11:39PM 11-27-2008
I hate the whole "end game" crap people get so wrapped up in. MMO's are not single player games that you "win", you're just supposed to have fun with it at any/every "level" (not that level based games were ever a good idea), if there isn't fun at any/every level then that's a major flaw. If you're waiting for the holy end game to have fun with it something is wrong
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Jess said on 11:48PM 11-27-2008
Martin said: "The problem with War is that its PvE SUCKS."
This is true, but that's because this is Mythic who we are talking about. DAoC was the same way. Not only was DAoC PvE some of the worst, but it's what killed the game (that being ToA, a PvE expansion for a PvP game).
If Mythic has an achilles heel, it's that they make some of the worst PvE in the industry, hands down.
Some people say: "Who cares, it's a PvP/RvR game!". While that is true, but look at Guild Wars, a PvP game if there ever was one and it has pretty damned high quality PvE. The simple fact is that Mythic couldn't make engaging and high quality PvE if they even tried. DAoC's and WAR's pathetic PvE prove this. I love PvP, but PvE is extremely necessary in MMO's because of the "E" for Environment.
WAR's PvE , crafting, RP elements are almost non-existant. This combined with the decision to include Battlegrounds (and yes that's what they are) in the game have utterly killed true RvR. So many people wanted to explore the Warhammer world and fight epic battles in the Warhammer world, not grind the same stupid sports-style (alliteration woo!)Battlescenariogrounds..
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torak said on 1:14AM 11-28-2008
"As the post itself says, people aren't comfortable with a game that starts at level 1 and not the cap."
----------------------------------------------
MMORPG's need to really look at the level progression model.
Just get rid of it already.
WoW has conditioned players to bypass it as quickly as possible. Its an obsolete mechanic.
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Skypp said on 1:29AM 11-28-2008
Sometimes we get new players in my guild that really know what they're doing. On top of that they learn their class in the first 20 levels, can talk about what they want to do in game, and seem really committed. I usually ask them at that point if they played WoW, and if they say yes I give them a bit of advice.
"this game is not about end game content, it is about the journey, slow down and enjoy the journey, if you play this like WoW and expect the game only to begin at 50(now 60), then you are going to be sorely disappointed".
Its a attitude that many WoW converts have, and I totally understand where this blogger was coming from even though me and the blogger play different games. I run in to people all the time that don't read quests, couldn't care less about the struggles of the small town, and hit top level. They skip all previous high end content and go strait to the place that gives the best loot. They get the loot and then wonder what there is to do now. They don't want a house. They don't care how they look, just that people see they have the best.
3 months of serious hardcore gaming and they're done. They've missed out on an entire world of content and intriguing story. They go away feeling the game is crap because there's "nothing to it".
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