Blue Mars: An interview with Avatar Reality's CEO, Jim Sink
by Tateru Nino 
Sep 10th 2009 at 9:00AM
Filed under: Betas, Interviews, Second Life, Blue Mars, Virtual worlds
As Blue Mars goes into a scaled, open beta, interest has been rising in Avatar Reality's virtual environment. Inevitably, it's compared to Linden Lab's Second Life and – rightly or wrongly – will probably be wearing that comparison for some years to come. Certainly, Second Life users have found the environment intriguing so far.
It seemed only proper that we sit down with Jim Sink, Avatar Reality's CEO and find out a little bit more about Blue Mars.
Massively: A lot of interest in Blue Mars comes from the Second Life community, and the media's going to be comparing Blue Mars to Second Life for... well, a significant fraction of forever. You're probably tired of the inevitable comparisons already, but Linden Lab's the 800 pound gorilla in the space right now. How do you feel about that?
JS: At least we're in good company. I understand why so many people want to make the comparison.
Second Life opened the door for a huge number of creators. Their community is exceptionally creative and their feedback has had a strong influence on Blue Mars.
Massively: Who or what inspired Blue Mars, as a virtual environment and why the choice of setting?
JS: Blue Mars was inspired by a vision of the future when the power to terraform whole worlds is within our grasp. The name Blue Mars represents possibility and hope. Our dream and passion has been to empower artists and developers of all sizes to bring their own dreams to life in a virtual world that is exceptionally detailed, secure, easy to develop for, affordable, deeply linked to the web, and massively scalable for worldwide audiences.
As to why we built Blue Mars the way that we did, we knew there was going to be an explosion in 3D capability and multi-core CPUs. Blue Mars is a clean sheet design for what a virtual world can be unfettered by legacy hardware and software debt.
Massively: Does Blue Mars represent a game or platform? Is it more like Second Life, or do you see Blue Mars as more of a 'gamey' hybrid like Planet Calypso? We're interested to know what sort of demographic you're targeting.
JS: Blue Mars is a premium 3D massively multiplayer virtual world platform. We aim to drive a new wave of innovation and creativity in the virtual world and MMO application development space by delivering a state of the art development platform that combines the most advanced tools from high end game development with a massively scalable server backend and an integrated secure microtransaction system.
As a platform, we target digital entrepreneurs, game developers, educators, and corporations looking to build immersive themed and game environments, manage virtual land, sell fashions and virtual items, and operate business ventures for a global audience.
Our user demographic will ultimately be defined by the content our developers create. We know that users follow great content and if we can provide a great platform for developers, the content and users will follow.
Massively: So, a platform then, rather than a game?
JS: Blue Mars is first and foremost a platform for developers, large and small.
Our focus is on technology rather than content development. The content we have created was built for the development community so they'd have a head start at creating their own cities and games. The source files for the golf game, waterfall, etc. come with our City Developer SDK. At this time, the City Developer SDK is only available under NDA but we're working to polish off the documentation so we can distribute it as widely as possible. Our Item, Cloth, and Block editors are all freely available at bluemarsdev.com.
Massively: Why is Blue Mars awesome, in your opinion?
JS: Blue Mars is a disruptive, generational leap forward in technology and opportunity. The new frontiers in play, learning, and collaboration made possible by Blue Mars' high definition graphics, state of the art interactivity, flexible development environment, and scalable server architecture that enables thousands of people to simultaneously connect in real-time events will radically broaden the appeal of virtual worlds.
Massively: Tell us a bit more about that, if you could. We understand that a city in Blue Mars is somewhat analogous to an island in Second Life. Is that about right?
JS: An island in Second Life has more in common with a Blue Mars Block than a City although there is certainly some overlap. A Blue Mars City is made up of Blocks. Blocks tend to be about the same size as an island in Second Life.
Massively: And you can really handle thousands of avatars in these spaces? Is that sharded/instanced (like, say Playstation Home) or are you really packing them into the same space, where serendipitous interaction is possible?
JS: We can both pack thousands of users into the same space or shard into separate instances. It depends on what the City developer is looking to do.
We can bring so many people together in the same public space because we don't have to stream in all of the geometry, textures, animations, and scripts to all of the players; most of what they need is already pre-cached on their hard drives when they download the city for the first time.
Not only does pre-caching allow us to bring huge groups together, it lets developers pack a lot more detail into the worlds. For example, the waterfall level in the beta has about 20 million polygons in it.
Massively: Speaking of interaction, can Blue Mars avatars shake hands, hug or kiss? In Second Life these seem to be almost intractable problems that get a very rough and awkward treatment through user-contributed animation and scripting.
JS: You can shake hands, hug, and kiss right now in Blue Mars. The animation coordination is seamless.
You can build animations in pairs so, for example, you can offer your hand to shake and the other party will respond realistically even though they might not have that animation as part of their inventory. But animation pairing goes well beyond simple gestures like a handshake or a hug. You can ask someone to dance and if they accept, the other party can dance their part of a tightly coordinated and choreographed routine.
We're still working on our animation editor to enable our developers to create their own animations as global items and sell them in shops.
Massively: Mature and Adult content has been in the public eye, particularly recently, along with failed virtual banks, and so forth. Everyone in the industry is taking a position on allowable content, from gambling and sex-oriented virtual environments to ones which allow neither. Where does Blue Mars stand in that space?
JS: We don't allow games of skill or chance that offer payouts for anything of value. Same goes for sports or event betting.
We don't allow securities markets, banking services, content that depicts minors or apparent minors engaged in sexual activity, or content that depicts torture.
Regarding Mature and Adult content, it certainly is a hot-button issue. As such, we're moving very carefully. Before we conclude how to proceed with mature content, we need to see how our community develops and to think carefully about how we balance the issues at hand. For now, we don't allow "mature and adult" content.
Massively: You're slowly rolling out beta invitations to registrants. What can new users expect in the very near term?
JS: During our Beta, users can expect rapid change as we improve the client and developers begin releasing content. At this time, all of our users start at a central welcome area where they can select from the demo content.
As more third party content debuts, we will transition to our integrated Places Browser where new users will be able to select content and events by category and interest or start with a general interactive welcome experience that provides guidance on the client's different features and capabilities.
Massively: And further out from that?
JS: Users can look forward to new chat and messaging features, the Blue Mars currency and transaction system, new camera and control options, platform level integration with popular social networks, direct links to Blue Mars content from the web, voice, an optional background downloader for new content and updates, teleports, maps, invites, an online events manager, and a few more surprises in the mix as we move out of beta.
The debut of the Blue Mars beta is a giant leap forward towards the day when immersive virtual experiences powered by ubiquitous dedicated 3D hardware and broadband connectivity are as essential to our online lives as the web itself.
Currently the Blue Mars beta is open to only to Windows users (DirectX 9 or better required), or to Mac users running Bootcamp, and should work equally well on 32 or 64 bit systems. You can apply for beta access to Blue Mars, or apply for the Developer program.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Gwyneth Llewelyn said on 11:50AM 9-10-2009
Ah... thanks for that last paragraph. It makes me cross Blue Mars out of the horizon :)
What a pity, though. The avatars look nice. :)
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skribe said on 11:42PM 9-10-2009
Gwyneth, it's an issue with the CryEngine2. Crytek are only supporting windows at the moment although the next release also supports XBox and Playstation IIRC. Blue Mars works fine under bootcamp I've been told.
Tateru Nino said on 11:56PM 9-10-2009
Jim himself runs it on a Mac with Bootcamp.
Dblade said on 2:53PM 9-10-2009
I don't really understand why Blue Mars and others like it focus so much on the developer/development aspect and give so little reason for people like me who plan to use the content as users to sign up. They talk about features like social site networking, etc, but I want to know if there is a, well, game in there. One worth playing.
I honestly think they should describe an actual Blue Mars created world, and show us how revolutionary it can be instead of focusing on it like a toolset. Your developers are only going to make money if we show up, and we need reasons to do so.
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daicon said on 11:39PM 9-10-2009
That's because how well of a toolset this game is determines how much potential it will have to make it a game worth playing and is what gets Second Life players like myself excited. If you've spent anytime scripting in SL you'd know that developers wish they could make better content, but have to compromise with the crappy tools that SL gave them.
If you want them to describe it for users then go watch one of the trailers for the game on Youtube. They do a pretty good job there Is say.
Either way I think Blue Mars is kind of in a difficult position. From what I've read online, it seems caught between being a game that gamers don't like (social and shopping) and trying to establish itself in the ground that Second Life already has a firm hold on.
Either way all I can say is that it looks nicer than SL and from what I've tested, doesn't play as awkwardly as SL. I hope they can pull it off, as I'd love to start developing an RP or MMO city for it.
Pingles said on 3:37PM 9-10-2009
Summary of interview:
"Yes, it IS Second Life with a new engine."
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TigroSpottystripes Katsu said on 6:52PM 9-10-2009
really? for me the impression was that the focus was more on organizations and companies instead of user created content...
DilSpi said on 8:25PM 9-10-2009
I do not see BlueMars as a 2nd second life with a new graphic engine.
Avatar Reality seems to set the focus a little bit different.
The content creation is much harder to learn and would therefor not be reachable for the masses of users. For sure the professionals will be happy to import from their Maya or 3D Studio, but the sometime creators with their Blender may need to wait just for now a bit until the BlueMars development hunts up.
I were able to upload the one default dress coming with the clothes-sandbox-editor, but were not realy able to make some new stuff.
All things get some steps forward but also more complex.
Imho the focusing on 'Citys' or 'Blocks' may in many technical ways a good and necessary move, but i ask my self, will we be able to have regattas through the grid? ( http://tr.im/jclassic09 ) I want to sail my vessel! :)
Ciao :)
Dil
Spartanic said on 7:18PM 9-10-2009
From what i've heard, Blue Mars seems to be much hotter on IP rights too. Second Life has been making hand gesturing movements about this issue for years with little actual progress. The newish CEO Mark Kingdon addressed this issue as a major focus in his opening speech in 2008 yet nearly into 2010 nothing has changed. They have profited off content theft for years so I can understand their reluctance. LL cannot deny they make a profit off IP violations, anyone that has filed a DMCA with Linden Lab (via fax only I might add) will know will know what I am talking about. The limited safe harbour case with Louis Vuitton should underline that, going forward, that hosting an environment that *knowingly* enables rampant IP violations means you are equally liable. Any moves by SL so far on IP has been protective of the platform, not protective of its creative userbase. If you need to become taken seriously as a platform you need to be made open to public and independent scrutiny. I personally would welcome some form of independent industry body that can oversee disputes such as ICANN does for web domains. Despite what I have written I am also a huge fan of Second Life - I think a serious new player in the field is exactly what they need.
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honda_yonjuban said on 8:28PM 9-10-2009
Are you saying that is a bad thing?
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honda_yonjuban said on 9:45PM 12-06-2009
Concerning :
Pingles said on 3:37PM 9-10-2009
Summary of interview:
"Yes, it IS Second Life with a new engine."
Jay said on 9:23PM 9-10-2009
Absolutely creepy eyes.
Scary in fact.
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skribe said on 11:54PM 9-10-2009
DilSpi said: The content creation is much harder to learn and would therefor not be reachable for the masses of users
Please tell me you're joking. SL uses non-standard tools that are difficult to master and reliant on a stable connection. Workflow is heavily influenced by server lag. Worse, there are no backup facilities so an inventory glitch can wipe out your entire project. BM at least gives you the option of choosing your own tools, from Maya and 3ds Max to Blender and Sketchup - all of which have interchangeable formats and are heavily used in an assortment of industries. It also means existing models can be imported with few alterations. Having to build everything from scratch has kept many from utilising SL.
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Melissa Yeuxdoux said on 4:09AM 9-11-2009
Windows only? Then I have no use for it.
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Gwyneth Llewelyn said on 4:53AM 9-11-2009
Yes, well, that's the usual argument: "use Bootcamp". Seriously, that's not an option; if I had any interest in using Bootcamp, I'd buy a PC. To do serious development in Blue Mars, it's obvious that one will need a plethora of software applications (3D modelling tools, animation tools, graphical design tools), all of them requiring licenses, and as you might imagine, Mac users don't buy both licenses for the Mac and Windows platform — and trust me, all these licenses together cost way more than the hardware itself :)
And please, spare me the comment "there are perfectly reasonable open source applications out there which can do the same". Of course there are, but that's hardly the point: open source or not, you still require training and experience to use them — and be knowledgeable enough to deal with the required support once in a while on your own (browsing forums and googling for answers). So that's an option for some, or even for many, but not for all.
So one thing is to dabble around in Blue Mars to try it out just to say "cool, I've seen it, I'm impressed (or not)". That's certainly available to me, but it's at the same level of interest than going to a friend's place to play on his or her Playstation, Xbox, or Wii: enough to say that I've seen how it works, never enough to become a serious developer for it.
Then again, SL didn't support the Mac during their beta-testing, either — it came just in mid-2004, and a working Linux version even way later. Of course they made the right choice to go with OpenGL from the very beginning, so sooner or later Linden Lab could, if they wished, port it to different platforms. Choosing an engine that is not tied to a specific platform, graphics card, or technology (which becomes obsolete faster than we imagine) is, IMHO, the only option as a developer.
(If I had to choose one, I'd probably pick Unity3D, which supports Windows, Mac OS X, iPhone, Wii, and works embedded on a browser too — a range which is ideal for 3D social environments, even though CryEngine2 might be better if you target the gamer audience. From the interview, however, it sounds as if the Blue Mars team didn't exactly wish to limit themselves to gamers — perhaps because they did make some market analysis and found out that the mainstream users of 3D social environments are hardly gamers or 3D modellers. A pity their technological choice didn't follow their marketing choices).
On the plus side, from some reports I read, it seems that unlike what was feared 6 months ago, Blue Mars actually runs reasonably well on a computer that doesn't cost as much as a small car. That's at least very encouraging!
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skribe said on 6:28AM 9-11-2009
You also need to learn how to use the SL content creation tools. It's only those that have taken the extensive time to master the SL tools that are going feel shortchanged. Many of their skills are not transferrable because SL has its own custom way of doing things. At least if you're starting from scratch and you learn from the set available to use with BM you can transfer those skills to many real world industries or to other virtual worlds.
daicon said on 8:07AM 9-11-2009
I for one am glad that they are sticking to a platform, especially the most widely used one. I know it sucks for Mac and Linux users, but I imagine as things go farther along that options outside of Bootcamp and whatnot will become available to them.
The Crytek 2 engine looks gorgeous but I'll admit it did seem like an odd choice. As I've played the beta I can say it does look amazing.
I think that one of the largest obstacles for Blue Mars will be convincing users to move on from Second Life, which in my experience has been limited in the tools that it gives creators (As well as having a clunky, sluggish interface.) Atleast I will be moving on, and I'm glad that it's chosen to allow us to use industry tools that will be fun to learn and useful. Hell, even objects created for old gamemods that some of us have worked on and dropped will be useful again in some fashion.
These tools aren't hard to learn, and easy software such as Google Sketchup can be used by anyone. The SL tools and scripts have always been lacking in my opinon. Anyone ever used CCS for combot or RP oriented games? The devs for that did the very best they could with SL's limited tools. Now I'm looking at full Golf and Gliding games inside of Blue Mars and I'm thinking the possibilities are endless.
Basically, I think that now we want more than just a few days of socializing online, and Blue Mars really has that in mind, where SL is a sluggish experience and hasn't aged as well at all.
Tateru Nino said on 8:22AM 9-11-2009
I got a steady 8fps throughout, which was quite acceptable. Early days yet.
Amiryu Hosoi said on 6:36AM 9-13-2009
Can anyone tell me if I can export my Second Life creations and buildings to Blue Mars? And will I be able to make some cash in Blue Mars and convert that to RL Dollars?
Ami
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Tateru Nino said on 8:03AM 9-13-2009
Well, I can answer the first part. Second Life content wouldn't be transferable. You could recreate it in Blue Mars from scratch, as a registered developer, but the way content is built is completely different.